Welcome to Murky. You Don’t Get it Your Way.
I am at Murky Coffee, where I just heard a conversation in which the barista told a guy that he was not allowed to pour his espresso over ice.
“But that’s how I want it,” the guy said.
“You can’t have it over ice. It ruins the quality of the coffee. It’s also against our store policy,” the barista said. After the customer left the counter, the barista was fuming and told his coworker, “I almost told that guy not to come back.”
Thanks, Nick, for hiring such helpful young people who uphold basic tenets of customer service. Where would the world be if customers could get what they wanted? This young fellow did a good job protecting the ignorant customer from cold espresso.
Barista guy - get over it. It’s just coffee, not a matter of safety or health, and the guy knows how he wants it.
Comments
122 Responses to “Welcome to Murky. You Don’t Get it Your Way.”
July 13th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I can understand their motives. They want coffee in, what they consider, its pure form. I respect their commitment to the way they think coffee should be served, but they have to recognize it’ll cost them patrons, which is unfortunate.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
I’m pretty sure I’ve been served an iced americano at Murky’s before. That’s fundamentally the same drink. This doesn’t sound like a case of story policy, but a surly barista. I agree with Carl: Get over it, barista guy.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Yeah, I get that, Tom. They really are experts and know coffee from a technical standpoint better than most people do, but they don’t know the way customers want it. Good, unadulterated coffee is something pretty special, but the subtleties are lost on most of us.
The end result - that guy’s dollars are going to go somewhere else in the future.
Brian - right on!
July 13th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
I was at Murky today and didn’t see this happen, but it’s not fair to blame the barista for enforcing the store’s official policy, or for the customer to demand that the staff violate it. Straight espresso and the classic cappuccino are signature beverages at Murky. They don’t ice them, they don’t serve them to go. Saying no in these particular instances shows the pride they take in their work. It might cost them a few customers, but it helps build the company culture of being the most devoted to coffee quality in the DC area. Personally, I respect that. And having seen several years’ worth of baristas go though the store, I think the current staff is generally one of the friendliest.
(Disclosure: I worked at the Murky Clarendon store back in 2004-05.)
July 13th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
I got an email from a coffee expert who explained something rather important about the science of coffee:
“Pouring espresso over ice ruins the crema, the golden brown top layer of an espresso shot that not only gives espresso the majority of its flavor and sweetness, but is also the marker of a true espresso, in a way that using an espresso in an iced Americano does not. Destroying the crema results in a beverage that lacks the flavor that many people (to name a few, the farmers, roasters and baristas) have worked very hard to create.”
I stand corrected on my assumption that iced espresso and hot were merely separated by temperature. Thanks, my friend!
I also got wind from another person who witnessed the interaction between the customer and employee. Apparently this was more a case of the customer being a dick than poor customer service.
With the above explanation of what happens to espresso when introduced to ice, I can see why there would be a policy against serving it that way.
My apologies to the young fellow who I assumed was being a jerk.
July 14th, 2008 at 1:15 am
This entry on And I Am Not Lying may interest you.
July 14th, 2008 at 7:37 am
More like Rashomon than ever. Thanks for the link, Paulo. In this age, everyone has a blog and I am glad about that. Jeff - thanks for posting about your experience!
July 14th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Ok, this is something I’ve always wanted to see - a ‘real life’ incident posted with various POVs. I never thought I’d see it outside of Hollywood fakery; this is just plain cool.
Ok, now that I’m done geeking out…
July 14th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Hey man — I can freely admit I was being a dick. And I’ll even admit that sometimes I’m a barbarian that doesn’t appreciate the subtleties in things. But being a dick doesn’t start out of nowhere. Usually rotten customer service brings out the worst in people.
If they have a policy against serving iced espresso, well, that’s pretty dumb, but I kind of get it. However, giving customers a long, patronizing lecture … I don’t get that at all. There was an educational opportunity there to teach me the difference between iced and regular coffee. They blew it. I think a much better blog post could’ve been been “gosh, I really learned something from a passionate barista today — a guy who taught me something about his craft.”
And, given that Murky Coffee just lost an entire store, I’d think they’d want to keep the customers they have.
I’m a writer, photographer, blogger and storyteller too. I know something about working my ass off on a project and letting it go. I don’t get mad when people read my blog on a blackberry, or in RSS where they can’t see my photos. I don’t have a tantrum when people skim my stuff or misunderstand the point. It’s part of the way the world works — make something, let it go, let it take on its own life.
And, dick or not, it’s still just coffee.
July 14th, 2008 at 10:49 am
There sits, at the register at Murky, a sign that says what they won’t ice. It’s not a lengthy list, but it’s their policy. And they have that right. I’ve watched them turn away people for double-parking in their lot, too. It’s their right. It’s their product.
Oh, and by the way, your Dick Move is now posted above the register.
July 14th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Jeff’s relating of the incident sure sounds like a case of the problem clearly being not the policy but the crappy way of enforcing it. All the barista had to do was say “we don’t ice expresso straight because it ruins the crema - how about an Americano with 4 shots, light on the water?”
I met Jeff at a WaPo blogger event a little over a year ago (before he moved to NYC) and hung out with him later in the evening. I’d be surprised if he instigated an incident - I found him to be perfectly cordial, if not tolerant of jackholery.
Murky, on the other hand, I find perfectly capable of this shittyness. I once had this exchange there:
The person at the register says some variation of “What would you like?”
I say “Do you have any other non-dairy alternatives other than soy?”
“What else would there be?”
“… I really don’t know. That’s why I’m asking.”
“No.”
“… okay.”
There’s a lot of ground between sycophant and snotty, but Murky doesn’t seem very interested in exploring it.
July 14th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Tom - just because it’s their right and their product doesn’t make it good business sense. And in a culture where people will overpay for lousy espresso drinks at Starbucks, it’s especially bad business sense to go above and beyond to alienate a customer.
July 14th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
They have the right to choose who their customers are, but they also have every right to fail at their business for not serving a wider audience.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I’d just like the junk store back, please. Way more interesting than Murky.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Barista’s a tool. Writing a blog post about it, makes _you_ a tool, albeit after the fact.
Get out of the damn coffee shop. All of you! Spending time there is attention-seeking behavior. Did Mommy not breast-feed enough? If you’re too stupid or lazy to make your own, and need to be belittled in public, Murky sounds perfect!
Tomorrow, on what I saw at WalMart:
July 14th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
The claim than espresso over ice ruins the crema, but iced Americano does not seems implausible at best. Is there some sore of reasoning or evidence that adding extra water somehow protects the espresso from the ice? That’s just a weird claim.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Blunder we’ve done Wal-mart already. I think Target is next on the calendar. Maybe K-Mart if we’re feeling white trashy that day.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
But what if I don’t CARE if the ice ruins the crema? Isn’t that my choice?
July 14th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Sure, it’s your choice.
Before you pass judgment, recognize some restaurants won’t serve you a steak cooked more than medium, because they find that objectionable to their preparation and to the cut of beef.
The same applies to coffee. Murky proudly says on their register what they won’t ice. It’s not a long list, but espresso’s on it.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Some coffee shops pride themselves on their consistent quality. If they choose not to allow poorly made coffee to pass their counter top, that should be respected.
You don’t ask a sushi chef to put ketchup on your nigiri. You don’t ask a fashion designer to embroider minnie-mouse on your shirt, just because that’s ‘how you want it.’ You’re offending them and their standards. Some view making coffee as an art, just like photography, cooking, writing, etc.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
No, but after I buy the nigiri, if I want to ketchupize it, why the hell not?
July 14th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
“some restaurants won’t serve you a steak cooked more than medium”
…mostly because they don’t know *HOW* to cook a steak well-done. True story.
July 14th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Beef shouldn’t be served well done. Seriously.
July 14th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Some restaurants won’t prepare a steak over medium because if you ask for well done but when it arrives at the table, and you think that means “just a little pink inside” they can’t fix it, they just wasted a steak.
If Murky employees want to be insufferable snobs, they should be prepared for customers to warn people about it.
July 14th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I would ask a fashion designer to embroider Minnie Mouse on my shirt if I wanted it that way, because I would be paying that fashion designer for a service. And if I want to put ketchup on my nigiri, I don’t think the sushi chef has a right to say anything.
They are in service industries, and I couldn’t care less about what offends their delicate sensibilities. Please.
I’m a consultant and I view some of my creative work as art, too, but if my client wants something stupid or ugly I do it - because it’s my job to do so. The barista isn’t paid to be a connoisseur, he/she’s being paid to make coffee.
July 14th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Either the barista’s a professional in a customer service business, with a deep understanding of the nature of the coffee and desire to share his passon. Or the barista’s some minimum-wage counter monkey, punching some guy’s clock to pay for his weed.
In the first case, the barista understands the reason behind the policy, and can say, “Friend, you only think you want that. Let me give you something that’s just as cold and just as strong, but tastes way better.”
In the second case, the barista should be humble about his ignorance, not snotty, and stop giving the guy lip. Trying to improve the customer’s experience by ruining his experience is futile and idiotic.
Either way, the customer was a dick after the barista was. That doesn’t excuse either burst of rudeness, but the store started it, and they’re the alleged professionals.
July 14th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Yeah, the customer loses the argument with the scribbling on the bill. Right up until that point, he had God on his side, I think.
Every restaurant has a right to have a menu, which may not include “iced espresso,” and every restaurant (or coffee shop) can decide whether they offer special orders not on the menu.
Where they’re being absurd is in leaning over and lecturing the guy about what he does with the espresso after he buys it, because that is not the way the world works. If you aren’t prepared for people to decide how to serve your food to themselves, then cut it up and spoon it into their mouths yourself and sell it no other way. Otherwise, accept that you are in charge of your part — what happens to the drink BEFORE you sell it to the customer — and the customer is in charge of his part, which is what happens to the drink AFTER you sell it to him. You can’t keep people from adding too much milk and sugar, you can’t keep them from salting their eggs more than they should…life’s too short.
July 14th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
“I would ask a fashion designer to embroider Minnie Mouse on my shirt if I wanted it that way, because I would be paying that fashion designer for a service.”
No. You’re paying the designer for a PRODUCT.
So you can ask for something stupid, and they would have the right to say, ‘no, I won’t do that.’ If you bought their shirt, and ruined it in front of their face, they would have every right to be offended. Especially since ‘designer’ clothiers, like ‘designer coffee shops,’ want to keep their product consistently high-quality.
You can do what you want with what you buy, sure. But you shouldn’t be a dick, period. And this interaction sounds like two dicks being dicky to one another. No surprise, I guess. But the indignation at ‘coffee snobbery’ is ridiculous.
If they don’t offer iced espresso, they don’t offer it. There’s no point in being a prick like the blogger was. And the fact that he’s proud of his childish behavior is embarrassing for him.
July 14th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
BTW, I’d think Splenda, Sweet N Low, & Equal would do a hell of a lot more to ruin the “nirvana” of perfect coffee.
In the end, I hope they get that in today’s economy, a $3-$5 cup of coffee is a luxury that demands HIGHER levels of service, not lower.
July 14th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Do you not think the Murky staff are fully aware that they will loose customers to the double fatty caramel whip cream blendy type drinks with ice at starbucks? They don’t care! Just like the chefs of fine dining establishments could care less when you walk out because they won’t do substitutions on recipes that they pain stakingly pour there heart into.
Murky is as much a coffee shop as they are a business trying to market themselves differently and attain a higher level of quality. Unfortunately for you, you do not fit that business model. If you want pedestrian, go pedestrian. Don’t try and drag better people down to your 20oz, ‘my way or the highway’ level.
The customer is not always right. You would all know that if you had ever worked customer service. In fact, the customer is hardly ever correct about anything and it’s now become our job to educate the mindless masses who have been coddled by the starbucks’ and mcdonalds’ for oh so long.
If you’re looking to start a fight and berate someone because you’re not in charge at home or at work, then go to that magical ‘third place’ called starbucks. That’s what they’re trained for.
July 14th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
@11 Don:
Other non-dairy alternatives to soy milk: rice milk, hemp milk, and (god help us) dry powered non-dairy creamer.
soy milk is the creamiest.
rice milk is cleaner.
hemp milk is drier.
July 14th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Jonathan - right on. Murky is a gourmet coffee place. They know their stuff and it’s high quality, to be sure. If you simply want expensive coffee, go to Starbuck’s. They will hook you up for quite a few pretty pennies, whether it smells like cat piss or not. If you want great coffee for high prices, go to Murky. Bad coffee for cheap? Try McDonald’s.
What about great, cheap coffee? Haven’t run across that yet but y’all let me know if you do.
But even if the customer isn’t always right, it’s better to try to educate him than be pedantic and highfalutin about it. If you go one way, you have a customer for life. Go the other way and you get this type of situation - a lost customer and a couple public forums of people talking about it.
July 14th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
if you want great espresso for cheap(er), get a Nespresso Machine (and an Nespresso Aeorcinno if you like lattes). Then you can make great coffee at home for lots cheaper, and even pour it over ice and F-up the crema flavor if that’s what you are into. Ever since my husband bought this machine, which takes cute little cartridges of coffee, I can’t stand most coffee shop coffee. Plus, I don’t have to deal with Jackholes of any sort. The Aerocinno makes a nice frothy heated milk for hot lattes.
July 14th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Well, I was willing to give the store the benefit of the doubt, but when i went to their website using their store name dot com, I was surprised to see this as the most recent post. (I paste it here in case they decide, on my advice, that it was kind of WILDLY unprofessional and take it down)
———————-
from Nick
Open Letter to Jeff Simmermon
Dear Jeff Simmermon,
So as you’ve seen, there’s a little blog-thing going around today on BoingBoing and Metafilter about some sort of incident at the shop this past weekend.
(Original blog post here. Also blogged here and here.)
I suppose some sort of two-cents is warranted here.
Okay, we don’t do espresso over ice. Why? Number one, because we don’t do it. Number two, because we don’t do it. Mostly for quality reasons. Also, because more than half the time, it’s abused (Google “ghetto latte”).
We have some policies at murky coffee. No sleeping in the shop. If you’re asleep, you’ll be tapped on the shoulder and asked not to sleep in the shop. We’ve had to ban a customer because of his chronic napping.
No modifications to the Classic Cappuccino. No questions will be answered about the $5 Hot Chocolate (during the months we offer it). No espresso in a to-go cup. No espresso over ice. These are our policies. We have our reasons, and we’re happy to share them.
To others reading this I will say that if you don’t like the policies, I respectfully recommend that you find some other place that will give you what you want, or select something that we can offer you. David, the barista in question, is respectful, passionate, and cares about making good coffee, and he cares about murky’s policies. Nobody’s perfect, and maybe David could have chosen different words or a slightly different tact in responding to Jeff Simmermon’s request. But that’s life. At murky, we treat people with common courtesy, and expect the same from our customers. Not in response or in turn, but because that’s how people are supposed to treat each other. We’re not supposed to go through life looking for reasons to get pissed off. Life’s too short for that sort of thing.
To Mr. Simmermon, you overplayed your hand with your vulgar tip-schtick. While I certainly won’t bemoan you your right to free-speech, I have to respond to you in your own dialect: Fuck you, Jeff Simmermon. Considering your public threat of arson, you’ll understand when I say that if you ever show your face at my shop, I’ll punch you in your dick.
Respectfully,
Nick
Owner, murky coffee
————-
wow…
Respectfully?! really?
Nice way to spin something that is hurting your public image. You could do better with Ari Gold from Entourage.
(Love the show JP and crew.)
July 14th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Wow, brave man, that Nick — moderating his comments after getting flayed a bit on the internet and then threatening to punch Jeff in the dick.
I’m just having a hard time reconciling his whole “treat people with common courtesy” thing with his non-payment of many months’ worth of DC taxes, the taxes that pay for schools, infrastructure, social services, and a whole slew of other things. And he owed taxes on money he earned atop these idiotic rules he’s set up; I’m glad his old Hill location will soon be someone else who might have a more sane view of what it means to be a businessman.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:06 am
Dear Nick, Owner, murky coffee,
You are a tool. Get a life you coffee-douche.
Respectfully,
Michael, former murky coffee customer
July 15th, 2008 at 1:22 am
p.s.
after reading their response… does anyone else have “Soup Nazi” running through their brain?
July 15th, 2008 at 2:48 am
Espresso over ice isn’t any less pure! Providing you ice it quickly it tastes damn good!
July 15th, 2008 at 3:11 am
Personally I think milk and sugar ruins coffee. But hey, Nick CoffeeMaster Murky sells people espresso with those options. I bet they even let people put soy milk in there. Strikes me as a rich kid with a coffee shop, more interested in being cool, having attitude than making money, building clientele. I especially think attitude ruins coffee.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:59 am
When they go out of business, and they will go out of business within two years most likely, the sign will read “Closed: You couldn’t quit drinking at Starbucks”. Just like every single ratty bookstore I’ve been at that wouldn’t order books blames Barnes & Nobles and Amazon. Seriously, Coffee is a commodity, a product. If you want to run a coffee place use superior beans and treat the customer better than Starbucks will. The fact that they can’t outsell a place that sells edible Diesel fuel says something about the quality of atmosphere and customer experience.
To all that claim that it should be about the quality of the drink, I can understand that. But Starbucks will let you piss in your own cup without making a big deal about it if you so choose. When every single Independent you like closes, it won’t be because of quality. It WILL be a result of inferior customer service.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Quality is a great thing and if their standards are about quality, I hope Murky sticks to those standards. However, most of us do not have the palate to appreciate such things.
I make beer and know something about it and can tell you with certainty that brews like Miller Lite and Budweiser are not what I would consider even good quality. However, these brews have been around for a long time and are not going anywhere.
Basically, for most people, beer is an alcohol delivery device, and for most people, coffee is a caffeine delivery device. As such, it feels fancy to dress up coffee and give it different, foreign names. In the end, most people do not drink it for the aesthetic experience, but might enjoy the taste as they get their fix of caffeine. In these cases, quality goes by the wayside.
Will quality keep Murky going? For their sake, I hope so. Realistically, I would be surprised to see that happen. Good customer service would help, as would coffee education. Just imagine if we could all be made to appreciate a cup of really good coffee or espresso. Getting us hooked on that experience and educating us will help that.
Nick - I recommend doing some public tastings and telling us what we should be looking for in flavor, just as vintners will do with their wines. Or if you don’t want a public spectacle like this, do it with me, and I will record it and post it here.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Here’s an email I sent to Nick at Murky Coffee. I included my name and address in the email.
–
I’m signing this note with my name and address. I’m not using any cuss words or insults or threats of physical violence.
You can see I live in Silver Spring, MD. That’s DC area, and I make it in to Arlington from time to time. Potentially I’m a customer of yours, though I don’t think I’ve ever been in your shop.
You had a chance to respond to Jeff Simmermon, and a wide audience to see your response, and you chose to do it an obnoxious way that only made you and your shop look worse. You are contemptuous of your customers, you are a pettifogger, and you use racist language. The term “ghetto latte” is inherently racist.
A month from now, if I happen to walk or drive past Murky Coffee, I won’t remember why I don’t like Murky Coffee. I’ll just remember that there’s something about the shop that left a really bad taste in my mouth, and I won’t go in.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:09 am
First of all, Murky is awesome. The coffee is delicious. The people who work there actually care about making a good product and serving it well and, more importantly, are generally incredibly friendly, nice people.
Sometimes the customer is just wrong. I think we all agree makes you gauche and ridiculous to sit down in a fine restaurant, order an expensive bottle of wine, and then demand they put ice in your glass. This is basically the same thing.
Furthermore, no matter who you are, no matter what a shop did to you (in this case, put up with a difficult customer) there is NEVER an excuse to scrawl “Fuck you and your precious coffee policy” on a crumpled bill and lob it at the staff. An act of immaturity like that basically renders a person ineligible to discuss matters at the grown-ups table.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:18 am
@carlweaver, re: coffee education programs -
Murky has staged public cuppings and “learn to make espresso at home” classes in the past. Tastings are also held regularly at Big Bear Cafe and occasionally at the Counter Culture office in Adams Morgan (both Murky and Big Bear buy their beans from Counter Culture).
Any of these may be interesting to the individual who wishes to learn more about the nuances of good coffee vs. Starbucks/Caribou/etc swill.
(sorry for the second comment post)
July 15th, 2008 at 9:41 am
I think this speaks to a fundamental flaw in fancy-coffee shop menus: the markup on the “components” you pay for is so obscene as to drive people to e.g. this “ghetto latte” that started the no-iced-espresso policy in the first place. Why, for the love of God, would a shot of espresso be less than a dollar, but two or three shots of espresso plus a dime’s worth of milk be five bucks? Because they can get away with it.
Having read both first-hand accounts, I frankly love both these guys. They both have a valid argument, in my view, and I don’t think either acted unreasonably (at least according to current Internet standards for hyperbole). I think if Nick wants to see a good resolution, the thing to do is fix the pricing to remove the incentive to game the system.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:44 am
There is never an excuse to launch into a profanity laced tirade against a service employee. Simple as that. None of the other noise here matters.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:07 am
I don’t think there’s any excuse for a business owner to respond to a jokey blog post about espresso and customer service with dickpunch threats, either. I didn’t think I’d have this much fun watching Murky Coffee self-destruct, but Nick has not disappointed.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Man, I’m lucky I drink Pepsi instead of coffee… :-P
July 15th, 2008 at 10:14 am
@ DailCaveat
..But its then ok for the *owner of the store* to “launch into a profanity laced tirade” directed back at the customer? Read up the comment thread or go to murky’s website, if you’re not getting what I’m talking about.
This whole situation is hilarious. The shop employee was being extremely rude and condescending to the customer, and rather than being mature, The customer chose to respond in kind… to which the owner responded with even *more* immaturity.
This is directed at Nick, and anyone who supports his views or his shop on this thread.
In any service industry you expect customers to be rude. It just happens. I’ve been there, I’ve done that. The customer, in a service industry, is pretty much always right. Do I feel sorry for people who have to deal with bad customers? Yes, that’s why I tip well… but those people still have a job to do and that job doesn’t include being a condescending prick. In no circumstance should a store owner ever back up his bad employees… he should be apologizing for their behavior. Finally..threats of violence towards customers on a public blog post… by the owner… really? If you’re going to pull a stunt like that over one irate customer, you don’t have what it takes to run a coffee shop or pretty much any other service-based business.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:20 am
So if someone orders one of Murky’s fancy estate coffees, do they pitch a fit if said customer then sullies the brew with cream and/or sugar? If they want to be consistent, they probably should.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:31 am
this has motivated me to finally purchase a coffeemaker. i’m done going to murky.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:33 am
@ BigTuna
Firstly:
I’ll reiterate - there is no excuse for adults to act in this manner. That includes the shop owner as well.
Nonetheless, whatever the shop owner wrote was after the fact. Not excusing it and not suggesting that his comments were totally appropriate but they are, for certain, COMPLETELY irrelevant to an assessment of whether or not the customer was right in his iced-espresso tirade.
Second:
“The shop employee was being extremely rude and condescending to the customer”
Where do you get this? From my understanding - reading the blog post of the actual customer - he interrupted the Barrista and launched into a profanity laced tirade. Can you explain where you read this interpretation? Even the customer doesn’t say the barista was rude…
You also refer to the barista as a “condescending prick,” which prompts me to ask where YOUR anger is coming from?
For the record, I’ve been holding down some counter space every morning at Murky since before it was Murky. I have met pretty much every employee over the years and I know David to be intelligent, thoughtful, earnest and talented.
Do you know him? If not, I would think that it takes quite a bit to start lobbing things like “condescending prick” at people you’ve never met. But maybe that is just me with my silly ideas about how grown folks behave.
I don’t know what it is about the internet that obliterates perspective and makes everyone feel completely entitled to what they want and bottomless indignation when denied their whims but you can certainly see it in action here.
What should have happened, in my opinion is that as soon as the customer crossed the line (swearing at staff) he should have been asked to leave. The coffee shop is a private business. Anyone creating a disturbance should be asked to go.
– MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 10:53 am
“and maybe David could have chosen different words or a slightly different tact in responding to Jeff Simmermon’s request.”
The real meat of this story is right in there, everything else is irrelevant. And how quickly Nick blows by it without giving it any serious consideration speaks volumes.
I said it before, I’ll say it again: this all happened because when Jeff asked for one thing they said no rather than “no, but…” They had something that satisfied his desires (an Americano with four shots and light on the water), and he was perfectly pleased with it. All that had to happen to avoid all this was for the person taking his order (not sure if that was David or if he just pulled the shots) was to make the tiniest of effort to find common ground.*
I’m sorry that some people have such a problem with “the customer is always right,” as an expression, so maybe we should switch to the real meaning of that phrase: THE CUSTOMER IS THE PERSON WITH THE MONEY AND WE WANT THEM TO GIVE IT TO US. The problem here is that Nick and his team want to have it both ways, and they should have refused to give Jeff a cup of ice if it was such a violation of their artistic vision. Instead they decided to play this little game because they won’t put the customer’s money where their mouth is and just flat-out refuse the sale.
But hey, if they’d done that then they wouldn’t have had to chance to moralize over it. “Hey man. What you’re about to do … that’s really, really Not Okay.” Puh-leeze.
*I swear this wasn’t a deliberate pun, I just could not think of a similarly succinct way to express the idea.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:02 am
LOL. Nick can be such a thorny guy. He and I have politely bashed each other on my own blog for years. But he’s in the right here.
Companies need to reserve the right to fire some of their customers. There are truly bad customers who are far from always right — and a company needs to fire them to preserve their profits of their core business, and they need to maintain the kind of business market they are after. And not just chase every quarter that appears in the creases of the sidewalk.
Sorry, self-absorbed customers: you are not untouchable.
Starbucks dulled itself into near oblivion by setting no limits to the amount of whoring that they would do for customers, and they have completely lost their way for it.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:05 am
@Don
I am shocked at how ready you are to blow past the uncalled for profanity laced tirade…
“and maybe David could have chosen different words or a slightly different tact in responding to Jeff Simmermon’s request.”
That is the meat of the story???? Not this?
“You’re goddamned right you can’t stop me,” I said. “I happen to have a personal policy that prohibits me from indulging stupid bullshit like this — and another personal policy of doing what I want with the products I pay for.”
Or this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/simmermon/2666455570/
Really?
That’s the guy you are going to stand behind?
– MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 11:22 am
This whole brouhaha is astonishing. Let’s be clear: Murky is totally and completely in the wrong. YOUR JOB IS TO PUT BROWN WATER IN A CUP AND TAKE MONEY FOR IT. You don’t like the way someone drinks their brown water? Too f’n bad. Don’t sell it to them if you feel that strongly about it.
What’s more amazing is that the Murky folks don’t even have the self-awareness to be embarrassed over their stupidity.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:24 am
It’s all about the arrogance–that a seller should retain control over the property after the buyer has paid full value for the purchase. It’s like having the person who sold you a house tell you ‘you can’t use this shade of paint or that print of wallpaper because it will ruin the integrity of the house’
July 15th, 2008 at 11:31 am
whatever. the customer is a guest. granted, a customer with money buying a product, but still a guest. if he didnt like it, he should have left instead of being a prick.
nick the owner could have used better language, but aside form that, i whole heartedly agree with a response. his employees are part of his team, representing his ideals for his company. basically a family of sorts. if he cared about his policies, ideals, and his employees who respect him and his policies, then as the owner, you should definitely should support them.
basically, if you, the customer, dont like it. get lost and go somewhere else. not the best way to make mega millions, but a person has to have his ideals.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:51 am
@Dave:
“YOUR JOB IS TO PUT BROWN WATER IN A CUP AND TAKE MONEY FOR IT. You don’t like the way someone drinks their brown water? Too f’n bad. Don’t sell it to them if you feel that strongly about it.”
Umm… they didn’t, actually. And got sworn at up and down for their trouble. But that is kosher, right?
@Peggy
“It’s all about the arrogance–that a seller should retain control over the property after the buyer has paid full value for the purchase.”
No, actually it is about people going over to the milk bar and stealing a giant glass of milk - making an iced latte without paying for one by pouring it over the espresso.
Any service business is in charge of determining what they do or don’t serve. They can say no to you.
Do you people go into restaurants and rant and rave at the staff about what combos of ingredients they don’t serve you?
Well do you? No - of course you don’t! But for some reason you think that they guy making your coffee deserves less civility and respect than the guys over at the Kosher deli where, even though you LOVE bacon you know better than to ask for it.
I just don’t understand what you are all so angry about…? Only one person got mistreated here and it sure wasn’t the customer.
– MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
“I am shocked at how ready you are to blow past the uncalled for profanity laced tirade…”
I didn’t, but that wouldn’t have happened if they’d bothered to steer him towards a drink they found more acceptable initially or if they’d just done what they’d decided to do - give him the espresso and ice - without the snottiness.
I don’t respond to people that way but I’m not going to lose any sleep when people who are snooty and rude to customers get bad behavior in return.
All this talk about “ghetto lattes” is an empty diversion. A latte is 2/3 steamed milk, so all that needs to be done here is not hand over a cup only 1/3 full of espresso. Or just be a grown up and accept that the condiments get used in different ways. I’ve seen people fill a coffee cup 1/3 full of half and half. Are they “abusing” or just getting the drink the way they like it?
You can get clenched up over it and hoard the napkins and ketchup packets and inconvenience everyone or just suck it up and accept that one out of a hundred customers is going to use a larger percentage of the resources. What would have had a higher cost here? One “ghetto latte” or all the negative publicity?
July 15th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
“snooty and rude to customers”
I think, again, that you are kind of making this up.
Even if we go with your mental impression of the altercation - one that assumes the barista was snooty or rude (in my experience David is neither) no one ever deserves to be sworn at at their job - by a boss, customer - whoever.
Whatever moral high ground you’d like to cede to Mr. Customer evaporates the minute he starts swearing at an employee.
Period.
– MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Not to belabor this any more, but DailyCaveat Michael is right about this. I mean, I know David - he is a sweet kid - whereas this customer seems really proud of his own status as a jerk.
Say what you will about arrogance, but there is very little that is more arrogant than thinking that having money in your pocket to wave at somebody behind a counter makes you good or righteous or deserving.
For every person that claims this incident makes them want to order espresso over ice just to make a scene, I hope another person strides into Simmermon’s workplace in New York and tells him how to do his job.
Respectfully,
A Pretentious Millennial.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
If we’re gonna compare bona fides here…
I have met Jeff and shared a few drinks with him and have been a customer of Murky’s for probably about the same quantity of time.
In the time I’ve spent with Jeff I have not seen him be officious, arrogant, or rude.
In the time I’ve been a customer at Murky I have had to ask them if they’re ready to take my order and been condescended to.
It’s possible that the way Jeff treats servers is not the way he treats people he meets at social events, though I did not see him mistreat anyone at the bar we were at. I’d suggest to those of you who are friendly with David that perhaps he doesn’t treat random customers the way he treats you.
Quite frankly, Nick’s past and current behavior certainly would lead me to believe that Murky employees get the message that it’s okay to treat random customers worse than you treat your buddies.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Hey DailyCaveat: Pour some coffee on your shirt. Make it nice and brown, to show your true allegiance.
Over on andiamnotlying, the guy comments: “…somebody emailed me a link to the owner of Murky Coffee’s public response. All I’m saying is, if you were wondering where this barista’s attitude came from, wonder no longer. It looks like it’s learned behavior from the top down.”
I agree.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I’ve been following this and what I’ve yet to see is why can’t BOTH parties be in the wrong?
Barista: Supposedly a “sweet kid.” That doesn’t mean that a sweet, intelligent, thoughtful kid never had a bad day or never lets slip with a rude word or two. He missed a teachable moment here — for both parties.
Jeff Simmermon: Supposedly a total dick. That doesn’t mean he’s incapable of possibly being right for once. Behavior, though, still inexcusable.
Nick: Loves his coffee and his store. Still a totally unprofessional thing to do, though. But hey, as the owner that’s his call.
We wouldn’t still be talking about this if they didn’t ALL have a part in making this situation as fucked up and unprofessional and unacceptable as it is. I probably won’t be going back to Murky and I probably won’t ever be dealing with Jeff Simmermon either. So there.
Act your ages, y’all.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
That’s just it, Heather. Being a jerk and acting like a jerk are different things. I am sure both parties, all three if you include Nick, are wonderful people but everyone can turn into a jerk in the wrong environment. And something else that can happen is interpretation of what you say and how you say it. So it’s more than the person who communicates the message that is at issue here. Are we interpreting what we hear in an accurate way? Just something to think about next time someone irks you. (No, this was not directed at you, Heather!)
July 15th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
#56 Peggy M:
“It’s like having the person who sold you a house tell you ‘you can’t use this shade of paint or that print of wallpaper because it will ruin the integrity of the house’”
Pretty much every house in a planned suburb is sold with a set of “deed restrictions” saying almost *exactly* that. You need permission to paint your house a different color.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
@DensityDuck
I really don’t think that you’ve seen me defend Nick Chos’s response anywhere. I just think that there is no cause for the way the customer behaved. My allegiance, in this case is to acting like a grown up. Perhaps I don’t really understand what the barista did that was out of line? All I see is a lot of folks who want to project their own issues onto how they assume the conversation went down. Blaming the barista for the way the shop owner responded is equally off base.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Nobody comes off well in this story but the store owner’s a moron. What kind of an idiot would post that letter on his own website? Life’s short - I don’t need to deal with idiots like that, let alone give them money.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
@66 DamonTFB:
I think she’s referring to interior design, which is not subject to the deed restrictions.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Get a life people. Murky coffee is not SBX - and that’s a good thing. If you want a decent shot of espresso in Arlington, then head over to Murky. The staff there understands the process of pulling a good shot and are usually invested in making sure they do it right. If you want the same ol’ burnt espresso passed through machines that haven’t been cleaned or calibrated properly and pulled by folks who really don’t understand the process there are plenty of SBXs nearby.
I can’t help but think that in my short time here in N.VA we’ve lost a lot of good little independent shops especially in the same neighborhood - the kind of shops where the owners have an opinion and are usually willing to share it for better or worse. Maybe that opinion will challenge the way you think - or perhaps you’ll just be put-off, but it’s an exchange that goes beyond that sheep-in/sheep-out chain-store experience that’s slowly working it’s way through this whole region.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Daily: The Golden Rule applies both ways. If you act like a jerk to someone, then it’s hardly surprising when they act like a jerk in response.
And from the looks of things, the store owner strongly encourages his employees to act like jerks. Apparently that’s Part Of The Experience.
“Perhaps I don’t really understand what the barista did that was out of line?”
Imagine if you–
No, you know what? Just no. I’m not going to get into the trap of taking you at your written word. You know damn well why Jim was angry. Now, maybe you don’t MIND when someone treats you like something scraped off a shoe–I know there are plenty of closet masochists out there–but I can’t possibly imagine that you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA who Jim was angry.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
dnono: Your attitude is exactly why all those “good little independent shops” are being lost. If a customer wants to be Educated on the Holy Subject of Coffee, they’ll ask for that. But most people just want a damn cup of coffee, without a shot of attitude. If a business owner cannot recognize the difference, then they don’t deserve to be in business.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I’m a frequent customer of Murky and before it, Common Ground. This is far from the typical Murky experience, as evidenced by the typical volume of people there. If you take a look around the Clarendon district, you’ll see that the reason these shops are closing up is due to the higher rents brought on by property development.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
@DensityDuck
“No, you know what? Just no. I’m not going to get into the trap of taking you at your written word. You know damn well why Jim was angry. Now, maybe you don’t MIND when someone treats you like something scraped off a shoe–I know there are plenty of closet masochists out there–but I can’t possibly imagine that you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why Jim was angry.”
Seriously? Why are YOU so angry? Will someone please explain internet-male rage to me?
You know nothing about the place or the people and yet you are sure up to your eyeballs that the manner in which this barista spoke to a customer is was out of line as to justifiable induce a profanity laden tirade?
As to this:
“maybe you don’t MIND when someone treats you like something scraped off a shoe”
If you think this is how Jim was treated based on HIS OWN account of the conversation, you simply have no perspective.
Let’s spot you the point and say the barista was really smug. I me, make your blood boil smug. Would that, then justify a public profanity laced tirade over a cup of coffee? Personally I think that the answer is no. Maybe you just have lower standards for flying off the handle.
Where I think Jim went irredeemable wrong is in verbally assaulting someone who was just describing the coffee shop’s policy. If Jim had shown and patience, dignity or class in the situation things might have gone down differently. Instead he thought he’d be cute and chew out some powerless guy behind the counter.
After getting that out of his system, going back to the bar and making nice for another drink, Jim scribbles a literal FUCK YOU on a dollar bill and sticks it in the tip jar (oh, but not before he remembered to take a cutesy photo for his blog because this is SOOOO going to land me on DIGG).
Lets recap…
THE BARISTA:
Was possibly, but not verifiably and if nothing else at least subjectively smug in describing why this shop does not offer iced espresso.
THE CUSTOMER:
Completely lost his shit at a coffee shop employee in front of the whole store over nothing. After getting the drink he wanted he sat down, killed it, wanted another, was provided it courteously and then PLANNED OUT his further dollar bill dickishness so as to be able to document it later on his blog.
I mean, Jesus…
This guy was being twice the jerk just so he could brag about it online. Do you not find that utterly and completely morally bankrupt.
Not to mention pathetic?
- MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
This is just an ordinary day here in Seattle, home of temperamental coffee snobs on both sides of the counter, although I think everyone here would have refrained from ordering it over ice.
Still, sounds like both of them needed to untwist their panties.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
“When they go out of business, and they will go out of business within two years most likely, the sign will read “Closed: You couldn’t quit drinking at Starbucks”.” (Sean Says)
You have no idea how close you are to the truth. I doubt even the employees know how their Arlington Murky’s days are numbered. Two years is a little long… think more in terms of months. Get your coffee while you can… it will not last much longer.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
All I can say is that this whole story - all the posts by Nick, Jeff, Carl, the flickr shots and the comments should all be archived and used in a new media class (and perhaps a small business ownership class). It been an amazing (and exhausting) web 2.0 experience, better than any tv show, that’s for sure.
I’m heading over to my local independent coffee shop and getting an iced latte.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Am I the only one out there who suspects that this is just a viral marketing campaign initiated by a business desperate for cash?
July 15th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
James - Not a bad idea, but not what is going on. I have no stake in Murky, that’s for darned sure. However, I will have to keep this concept in mind next time I need that level of visibility for my own business.
Of course, poor customer relations can also have negative consequences, as we all know, so maybe this isn’t the best way to go…
July 15th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Daily:
“Seriously? Why are YOU so angry? ”
Why do you think I’m angry? Seems to me that you’re reading an awful lot into a written text.
PS two swears is not a “profanity-laden tirade”. And I can’t help but wonder why you aren’t as upset at Nick, with his threat to “punch [Jim] in the dick”.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
If Nick’s worried about losing money on ghetto lattes, the solution is the menu item: “large cup of ice to go, $2.00.” If he’s worried about the misuse of his perfect espresso, there are three possible, non-exclusive solutions: 1) Only serve espresso in an appropriately sized cup, “for here”; 2) Make the cost of the cup of ice prohibitive (maybe $10.00 instead of $2.00); 3) Get over himself.
I’m sort of willing to play along with the notion that pouring an espresso over ice changes its nature, because I have empirical knowledge that brewed coffee is a complex thing that changes in complex ways when exposed to elements like air, ice, and time, but there’s a right way and a wrong way to go about selling that notion if you’d like to stay in business.
If a customer wants to do something you think is an insult to your craft, it’s up to you to decide whether to take their money, but the guy who *does* take their money makes more of it over time. The sort of petulance exhibited here has a nice beat and I can dance to it, but I wouldn’t expect it to produce steady business when coffee is such an easily procured commodity.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
What a BrewHaha!
July 15th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
@DensityDuck
I am so sorry that I misjudged you.
What is your profanity quota for laced tirades?
I’ll just go ahead and draw a line at zero swears being the appropriate number in the situation we’re discussing.
That goes for the Murky owner, too.
– MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
“James - Not a bad idea, but not what is going on. I have no stake in Murky, that’s for darned sure. However, I will have to keep this concept in mind next time I need that level of visibility for my own business.
Of course, poor customer relations can also have negative consequences, as we all know, so maybe this isn’t the best way to go…”
It just seems a little too surreal and comical (not to mention timely).
If this is a real situation, it is really sad. All it would have taken is for this barista to say “We don’t offer iced espresso because we feel that taking hot espresso and pouring it over ice is detrimental to the flavor of the coffee. [not true; but anyway] We do offer a similar beverage called an Americano where we take 4 shots of espresso, add it to room temperature water then carefully introduce ice to it. It’s very good. Would that work for you?” Had this customer continued to berate the barista, at that point, I’d assume the customer is a jerk.
As it stands, Nick Cho, the owner of this establishment is either very smart or very stupid as his reply on his website made him out to look like a childish snobbish imbecile with little regard for his potential customers.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I think they should add the iced espresso to the menu and name it after Simmermon. Charge a dollar that the customer must first write a comment on. Drum up some more business!
Besides, they’re called “Murky,” so what experience would you expect?
murky Synonyms
1.Dark, dim, dusky, dingy.
2.Gloomy, cheerless, dismal, somber.
3.Having the natural light obscured, overcast, darkened, misty.
I guarantee this whole thing will be on the list of Stuff White People Like.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I’m sure that Murky will be closing up soon too - but not due to the higher rents of the Clarendon district, but rather the lack of any business sense whatsoever. First, they fail to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales tax to DC forcing the shuttering of their Eastern Market store. Then this whole debacle happens with their Clarendon store…punctuated by the ridiculous response posted by Nick Cho on the store’s website.
I think what makes Nick’s response worse than the behavior of both the barista and Simmermon is that it was calculated rather than a snap reaction.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I’m just imagining James Bond bellying up to the bar and ordering a “vodka martini, shaken, not stirred,” and the bartender shooting back, “That’s… that’s not OK, dude, because shaking that drink bruises the gin, and the ice waters it down, and it’s against our policy to…”
Actually, there’s no way the bartender would get through more than about six words of that response, because by then Bond would have pulled out the trusty Walther PPK. Having a license to kill must come in handy when dealing with recalcitrant serving people.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Money in pocket may equal respect for some proto-typical yankees who think the bigger the truck the better, but the fact of the matter is, the customer is not always right, and money at Murky will not buy you a free ticket to being right.
An artist has every right to say no and not sell out. Kudos to Murky staff for holding their ground.
Negative press? You’re not getting it. If anything, the customers who belong at Starbucks will go back to Starbucks. Murky will be left with the people who would never drink an espresso shot poured directly over ice. They win. They just ran a wicked marketing campaign to carefully craft the type of clientele that frequents their business. They will never by as synonymous with peoples’ lifestyle and culture as Hummer and a Big Mac, but that’s not what their after.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
“An artist”? It’s friggin’ coffee, mate! It wasn’t served with an interpretive dance!
July 15th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
“Negative press? You’re not getting it. If anything, the customers who belong at Starbucks will go back to Starbucks. Murky will be left with the people who would never drink an espresso shot poured directly over ice. They win. They just ran a wicked marketing campaign to carefully craft the type of clientele that frequents their business.”
That wasn’t a decent marketing campaign, for every one person that Murky’s may have turned on more than ten people(that can afford to drink there) will just go by it knowing they can’t do what they want with their drink. Coffee making can be an art(one filled with freakish denizens granted), but even artists have to eat. Bartenders have to deal with more asshats(who by the by, are drunk) and don’t get upset when someone wants something special. There’s a difference between cowtowing to the customer’s dollar and letting them do what they know they like with their drink. Murky’s will close down soon anyways.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
You know what ruins a good coffee? Asshole baristas. They sling coffee, they are NOT artists. They are generally college students with delusions of grandeur.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Is art that shit you bought from that ‘art store’, where the lady said, f’real sir, this is a Monet and everyone who sees it will say, ooooohhh you must be soooo important. Damn right you’re important, what with your tailored suit and optional sun roof. “God” gave you every right to demand what you want when you want it, so do it to the nines people.
End of story, don’t go there. You go where you want and to be a better person you forget the fact that Murky exists. Then everyone wins.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Greenberry’s makes great coffee, and I’ve always had great customer service there. Same with JavaShack (although it’s been a while). Both are walking distance from the O-line.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Wow. This has gotten very interesting. Let me just say this. I have my own opinions of Nick Cho as a person, and they won’t be reflected in this post. I totally stand behind the guy 110% on his decision to stand up for the integrity of his product, and everything that is sold in that building. I know his concern for the quality of the product may not concern you, or any of the other people who have grown accustomed to the crap they are serving over at the Green Mermaid, but he does see the value, and I do, too. It’s his shop, you play by his rules. Don’t like it, go somewhere else. I have visited the Arlington shop, and there are Starbucks near there that would LOVE to have your money. The fact is, that there is a sign posted to the effect, and that the customer was letting Jeff know he wasn’t happy about the policy being ignored.
Nick has a right to how he runs his business, Jeff has a right to how and where he spends his money. Simple as that. Nick also has a right to maintaining a quality standard of his product that alot of people may not understand. Go to Ninth Street Espresso in NY and ask them for a 16 oz. latte. Guess what? You won’t get it. Why? Because they are pompous pricks? No, because they make espresso in the Italian tradition, as a craft, not a commodity. And it’s okay that they do. In America, we have lots of choices of where we can buy coffee. But people know that if you want a great espresso or real macchiato, Ninth Street is the place in New York.
So, give the guy a break. Let him do what he feels is right for his business in the long run. And get off the baristas back for following policy. And the tip thing, even dumber. The barista works hard for their tips, and was following policy, pure and simple.
So, cheers to Murky on this one.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
The fact is, that there is a sign posted to the effect, and that the (barista) was letting Jeff know he wasn’t happy about the policy being ignored.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
“You know what ruins a good coffee? Asshole baristas. They sling coffee, they are NOT artists. They are generally college students with delusions of grandeur.”
Wow…. That is all I can say about Bob. That and get therapy.
@Jason
Right on the money.
Somehow the internet has bread this tremendous sense of entitlement - not just to wants and whims but also to righteous infantile rage when those whims are denied. No matter what the venue or your service beef, there is never cause to be uncivil.
Any self-importance people are perceiving (make that projecting) onto the Murky policy is easily multiplied a thousand fold in a customer who thinks he gets to treat people like crap just because he didn’t get what he asked for.
– MDT
July 15th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
This has been fascinating reading. For my money, as it were, Nick loses me when he says the reasons for their policy are “Number one, because we don’t do it. Number two, because we don’t do it.” Condescending and obnoxious.
Here’s what I think is funny (besides the ‘brewhaha’ comment): Nick goes to great lengths in the follow up to explain that “when we make our iced americanos (espresso + water + ice), we pour the shots into room-temperature water before adding the ice.” But here’s Jeff’s description of the preparation of the iced americano: “Then he turned around and filled up a plastic cup with ice, filled it 3/4 of the way with water and carefully added four shots of espresso.”
Am I missing something? Didn’t Murky happily serve Jeff what can only be described, by Nick’s definition, as a watered down ICED ESPRESSO?
July 15th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
It was an espressod-up icewater, mjd. Please, get your facts straight.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:45 am
Oh god I hate coffee so much, it gives me the shits. Besides, only old people and hipsters drink it. Drink a soda if you want to get diabetes that badly!
July 16th, 2008 at 8:44 am
“Wow…. That is all I can say about Bob. That and get therapy.”
Ah, another “artist” heard from apparently.
Let’s face facts, this doesn’t matter. Nick is so far behind in his taxes that Murky’s will be gone in a few months anyways. You think they’ll just close one location while going for their money. They’ll have a lien on everything soon enough.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:03 am
I would only point out that the Murky website needs to be updated. I think there’s an extra “S” at the end of the navigation item, “Location.”
July 16th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Jason: Being 110% behind someone means that you’re not actually completely behind them. You’re actually standing a little bit to one side.
July 16th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Bob, my understanding of their tax situation is that the DC shop was under a separate corporation from the VA shop, and they’re not linked, which means that the DC dept of taxation would have a real hard time recovering the rest of their taxes.
But hey, if you wanna keep dreaming, go right ahead :)
July 16th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
“And, dick or not, it’s still just coffee.”
What an utter disregard for what people like the Nick, the barista at Murky and myself devote alot of time to…sourcing coffee ethically and presenting it in a way that honors the farmer.
“I’m a writer, photographer, blogger and storyteller too.”
You just write, take pictures, and talk shit…anyone can do that, even a Murky barista.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
“What an utter disregard for what people like the Nick… devote alot of time to…sourcing coffee ethically and presenting it in a way that honors the farmer.”
What farmer wouldn’t be honored to know Nick is threatening to kick a customer in the balls in order to ethically present his coffee? Nothing says pride in your product the way swearing and threats of physical violence do!
p.s. “the Nick”? I’d assume a typo, except he does act like a guy who would call himself that.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
“but it helps build the company culture of being the most devoted to coffee quality in the DC area”
Yes, a company built on arrogance. Just what DC needs.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
During a coffee conference this past February (yes, I am a barista, and a coffee nerd), I went to Murky on two different occasions. I had two completely different experiences.
The first day, the female barista and I had a wonderful discussion of coffee prep theory, the advantages of a flat tamp vs. a curved tamp, etc. My iced latte was prepared quickly, and with great skill and craft.
The second day, I had to flag down a male barista because he was too busy talking to his friend to take my order. Then, when I asked for my usual iced latte, the barista asked me if I wanted “a little drink umbrella” to go with it. He grimaced and make a hacking noise as he handed me my coffee.
I have to agree with an earlier coffee. I respect Nick’s knowledge, as I had the pleasure of speaking with him at the conference. But his response defeats any purist cred he had with me. As for the customer being rude, screw that. If a barista tells me that how I drink coffee is “wrong”, he has already been rude, and I don’t owe him any respect for his “art”.
I respect the first barista who disagreed with me on almost every point I made, but did so with a smile and a discussion instead of condescension and arrogance. The second asshole, not so much.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Oops! Earlier “poster”, not “coffee”. But you guys knew that.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
I think Nick lost all his smugness privileges when he failed to pay his taxes.
July 17th, 2008 at 3:45 am
This whole incident makes me wish I lived near Murky’s so I could give them my business.
It’s not obvious, but pouring espresso directly over ice definitely ruins the flavor and makes the drink more bitter.
I used to think my girlfriend (who used to be a barista) was crazy for saying that and claiming that she could tell that other baristas had made her iced americanos in the wrong order until she personally demonstrated it for me several times and had me taste it each way.
The “correct” order is to pour the shots into water before adding ice. The lower temperature differential between the shots and water really does make a big difference and helps the espresso cool down momentarily before the ice is poured in.
I’m not a coffee connoisseur, but even to my unrefined palate, when the shots were poured directly over ice, the drink was definitely crappier.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
I think the biggest points that could be made is that, even if the customer is wrong, you as a business need to convince the customer that they are right. You don’t have to kowtow to them, but the second you roll your eyes, or state anything about the way that the customer is about to use the product you just sold them being really, really Not OK…. well that’s just really, really Not OK.
Just because you don’t like the way that it tastes typically doesn’t mean squat. I don’t like relish on my hot dog, but if I offered relish for my burgers, and sell hot dogs, once I’ve sold you the hot dog, and a cup of relish I have no right to tell you that putting the relish on your hot dog is against store policy.
The second that the coffee was sold, with the cup of ice the barista lost all rights to comment without an angry reply. I like to say that it’s not what you say but how you say it. In this case that doesn’t apply. It’s what he said, it was condescending, inflammatory and completely out of line - the store policy on what they make only applies to the employee not to the customer.
And using the term “your god damn right”, or “Hell yeah’ I’m going to drink it how I want” are perfectly fine for emphasis - had he said F*&^ off of Motherf*&^er don’t tell me what to do with my product not okay.
Yes the customer was wrong about the tip - the rest is just a failing business waiting to happen.
The “ghetto latte” fix your prices, don’t try to pull a fast one on a customer. Tried to order a shot in a 16 oz drip once, the place called it a shot in the dark - charged 1.50 more than a 16 oz and single shot. For what? Just trying to rip a customer off. Say you sell your espresso for .75 a shot, your cost for cup, lid and sleeve(to go) is ~.23, the milk - say you go crazy an use a full 8 oz. that’s a quarter. Latte cost 1.23 - customer cost 2.85 (just for giggles) Wow, that’s over 100% markup, how do you justify?
July 19th, 2008 at 3:59 am
As an unimpassioned observer from the left coast, I found this story along with the subsequent discussion mesmermizing, due in no small part to my love of a good cup of joe.
I was an early devotee of Starbucks before they began their policy of each store being in line of site of the adjacent one. One of my favorite anecdotes was a visit to a Starbucks in Seattle in the early 90’s where the ebullient fellow behind the counter talked my ear off on the subtleties of the many varieties of beans they had to offer, and recommended grinding them finely because he guessed (correctly) that I had a Krups coffee maker with a fine meshed filter simply based on where I lived (San Francisco).
Flash by nearly two decades and Starbucks is closing 600 stores because they became as diluted as their coffee. Seems not only small independents are susceptible.
But the zeal I experienced that time comes close to what I seem to detect about the folks at Murky. To that effect, I’d love to have such a coffeeshop nearby, if only to absorb that vibe of people passionate about what they do and make, not to mention getting a superior cup of coffee. And I don’t worry about whether they’re condescending or arrogant to me - I have enough self-esteem not to be affected thus.
Honestly, some of these posters that have a problem with Nick, David, et al must have some serious self-image issues for them to get all “I won’t have some wage-earner get all uppity on me” (head swaying and finger wagging).
And for the life of me, I can’t understand the negative response to Nick’s open letter. I thought it was hilarious and read it in exactly the same vein as Jeff’s blog. And while I’m no fan of profanity, I do recognize its use to emphasize a point, which Nick did well as a retort (I agree with DailyCaveat, however, that Jeff’s was totally unwarranted). And his follow-up was nothing short of masterful.
I’m just sorry that Nick has the tax problems that totally undercut his position and allow his detractors to circuitously (and irrelevantly) skewer him. He could have been the quirky wiseguy who nonetheless is dedicated to and passionate about his craft and practices it with an anti-corporate, devil-may-care attitude, but is reduced to a tax cheat and deadbeat. Let me just say that as a fellow Korean-American, I’m disappointed - what his parents must think of him…
As for the ghetto latte angle, what gets me is when I go through a MacDonalds drive-thru (OK, I show my true colors but sometimes I want an egg mcmuffin and don’t want to make a second trip for coffee), and I ask for one creme and two sugars and they give me like five cremes and 20 sugars (and about 50 napkins and they forget a stirrer). What a waste - it’s clear that these folks don’t have any sense of ownership. For a small business owner, to get shafted by both customers and employees like these must be maddening.
To finish, I do have to comment that DailyCaveat’s posts are intelligent, finely worded, and absolutely cuts to the point, rendering those who oppose him as blathering idiots. Johnathan Schelling’s few words on modern, superficial, conspicuous-consumer-driven, catered-to-the-masses life was so entertaining, he should have a blog of his own. And Carl Weaver, you make a fine unbiased and honest moderator. I’m sure you all can die happy upon hearing my assessments ;)
July 19th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Actually Tom Bridge, they will go straight after him for their tax money. By the time they are done? He’ll wish he hadn’t been born. While keeping things in separate corporations can provide some protection, when you own both of the corps, and they go after you (because as an officer of the corporation you are liable for the actions of the corporation) having separate companies won’t help…they are still yours.
I’m not dreaming, I’m informed.
July 20th, 2008 at 3:04 am
I like the fact the douche Simmerton committed a federal crime by defacing federal currency, then admitted and documented it on his website. If I have my way, the Secret Service will be paying him a call. Oh, who am I kidding, I’m way too lazy to make that call. But if Nick Cho hasn’t done it, he’s not the same Nick Cho who was an intern for Don & Mike and banged one of his high school teachers at the beach after his graduation.
July 20th, 2008 at 3:13 am
What people don’t seem to realize, and what the barista (which is a stupid nonsense unisex word which means nothing) should have caught onto, is the fuckwad customer should have been charged so far up the ass for ice that it would would have solved the problem. There is NO obligation to provide free ice or a second cup. Problem solved.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:32 am
I am what’s wrong with society because I seriously read all of these posts.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:33 am
and I live in Eden Prairie, MN
and I don’t drink coffee, ever.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:08 am
thepenismightier:
“Defacing” federal currency is not a felony unless it’s with the intent to commit fraud. He didn’t take a Sharpie and draw a bunch of extra zeroes after the one; therefore, no crime was committed.
To everybody who’s talking about “educating” people on what to look for in coffee: if you have to be taught that something tastes good in order to notice it, it doesn’t actually taste good. You can waste time and money “educating your palate”… I’m going to drink something that tastes as good the first time as it does the seventeenth.
July 23rd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Fascinating…I wonder how the barista would still feel upon learning that coffee - as a drink form, etc - originated in Europe. Where, common coffee, as we Americans know it, is hard to come by. In fact, in order to get an “Americano” a barista (say in Italy, France, or Spain) takes an espresso and adds water…ice to make it cold if you want. The fact that you can choose to “ruin” perfectly good café in the countries that invented the art form - says a lot.
I don’t think we as Americans should play the “know-it-all” role on this one. Why not just KISS and stick with good old American values: the customer is always right.
This random tidbit comes to mind when Americans are “high and mighty” about café or culinary culture: a large portion of the world calls Ketchup - “American Sauce” I guess one of the true American influences on haute cuisine? ;)
July 24th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I’ve learned something from this whole debacle: namely, that “artistic license” has become a catch-all haven for the pseudo-intellectual, the pretentious, and the plain old-fashioned assholes to hide behind so they don’t have to get called on the carpet for their crappy behavior towards other people. Our society lets certain people get away with so much shit if they do it in the name of Art (Roman Polanski, pedophile and AUTEUR, comes readily to mind), and it’s about time to stop giving carte blanche to any thickwit who plasters himself with the title of artist to avoid public censure.
July 26th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I’m an artisan roaster… selling coffee beans, not prepared beverages… customers do all sorts of things with them of which I don’t approve because I know it results in a suboptimal cup of coffee. Things like brew them in a 25 year old Mr. Coffee that hasn’t been cleaned since Billy Joel was a chart topper. Buy them 5 lbs at a time to save money instead of buying them fresh. Buy several varieties and blend them themselves. Store them in an open container on the counter. Pregrind them days or weeks in advance of use. I could go on. But that’s their choice, and they are free to make it. My job is to politely and respectfully educate THE CUSTOMERS WHO WANT TO BE EDUCATED. The results are encouraging. I sell lots of proper storage containers, good grinders, etc., and they are happy and appreciative when their home brew improves. And I do lose customers who don’t listen, when they believe that my premium prices are unwarranted because my stuff tastes no better than anything else they make. Oh well. That’s life. But I don’t presume to lecture about what they can and can’t do with the product I sell them. That’s the difference between a SALE and a LICENSE. Maybe murky wants to license espresso to customers… “click here to accept terms of use”…
http://www.muddydogcoffee.com
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